/social/ - Socialism

INTERNET AGITATE MACHINE


New Reply
Name
×
Subject
Message
Files Max 5 files20MB total
Tegaki
Password
Don't Bump
[New Reply]


Read the Rules and FAQ
Got suggestions or complaints? Join the poster union for meta discussion!


592f727169c7b700f2ee9161098727581a6b599c8f34e77a8dadc63959df6bc6.jpg
(44.7KB, 735x526)
First impression: Some really sharp people here. Due to what is happening in the culture it's rare to see different viewpoints sincerely and with good will challenged.

Maybe I'll gain some clarity. As far as I can tell there are clear requirements for cultural and political life that, if not met, lead to poor results in democratic processes. This is a clear issue I see in the modern Western political system where the middle class or "bourgeiosie" is becoming practically extinct. There are obvious cognitive priors to independent political participation. Some research has shown that most people do not mature to post-conventional (principled) ethics, but remain tied to the moral consensus or worse, depend on carrot and stick feedback. You cannot meaningfully involve most of these people in important matters, you can't even trust them to competently delegate their individual say to a representative. They have neither the priors to assess moral, cultural, historical, societal or scientific matters, nor do they even have the time as they are wageslaves. 

I do want them to be fairly and competently represented as human beings, citizens, friends and people with families, but as we can clearly see the material, cognitive and social requirements for that exclude most people even if they do deserve this treatment. 

How would you approach this issue without just A. giving everyone a vote and trusting that there will be some golden mean (doesn't work), B. calling for an uprising or a dictatorship or C. demanding handouts?
Replies: >>720 >>787
Hey newfag, good to see a decent post.
A quick point of notice, the word "bourgeoisie" has a different meaning the context of Marxist theory, where it refers to the owning class - the people who primarily make their income through owning things, like capital. This includes small businesses ("petite-bourgeoisie") all the way to professional shareholders of mega-corporations ("haute bourgeoisie"). This contrasts against the worker class under capitalism, the "proletariat", who must rent our bodies out to make income. These terms talk about economic, and therefore also political, relationships of the person to the means of production in society - do they control the machines, or work them? (The are other vanishing groups too like artisan peasants)
Those economic relations, owning or working, have a profound effect on how people react to politics and social change, regardless of how rich or poor they are. Plenty of literature on that so I'll leave it there

>You cannot meaningfully involve most of these people in important matters, you can't even trust them to competently delegate their individual say to a representative.
In a way, you're absolutely right. The typical person right now considers politics to be some optional thing or an interest rather than a process they care about. A comrade I know in one of the countries which has mandatory federal voting (with a fine if you don't) says more people than not are there to avoid the fine and are disinterested about the whole thing, even if they ultimately pick a party and make a valid vote.
But I don't think it follows that those people can't be politically involved. When your vote is drowned in a sea, it's an abstract, alien and kind of pointless exercise. I can't blame millions of people for treating it so casually. But when it comes to being politically involved in your own workplace, somewhere most people spend over half their waking hours, a huge part of their life and a topic that they're often therefore experts at, they have valid input beyond a mere vote. That's how worker unions form, and in rare cases we've even seen workers take control of workplaces in worker cooperatives.
But obviously typical workers don't have the spare time, experience or perhaps even tactical skill needed for federal issues, like foreign policy and economic management, let alone other political realms.

>How would you approach this issue without just A. giving everyone a vote and trusting that there will be some golden mean (doesn't work), B. calling for an uprising or a dictatorship or C. demanding handouts?
For Point C: handouts don't solve shit. Where does that money come from? It's one thing to be employed by the government doing non-for-profit yet beneficial social work, and one thing to receive extra social support ('handouts') for hardship, but the idea of universal handouts doesn't solve anything. At most it would be a gasp of air for people struggling to keep their heads above water, but ultimately a coping mechanism for dealing with capitalism's failure to provide for the poorer workers.
For Point A: Federa/state electoral politics hasn't solved shit either. Mandatory voting has been tried for years. But even in the ideal situation where the workers all decide to vote in their economic interest and elect my favorite candidate, capital has the power to dominate liberal-democracy
s politicians (liberal as in liberalism, not just 'progressive' like US politics uses that word). This can be soft power like bribery, or even hard power like sabotage of critical industry to give the politician a bad reputation. That's why people say, in all major Western countries, both sides are so similar. Even the 'left' of the two dominant parties (Democrats, Labour, etc.) are making strikes illegal, are sending riot police to protests, are busting unions, are keeping the mega-corporations pretty comfortable, are supplying the genocide in Palestine. Even where I am, the federal politicians aren't even listening to their party platform and their party members majority. Capital dominates. So I don't believe Point A does anything unless workers are actually empowered, voting in a system where their vote seriously matters rather than this liberal-so-called-democracy of the West.
As for B: You can't just 'call for an uprising' and expect that to work without actually organizing people, but most socialists believe some kind of revolution is ultimately necessary, and the capitalists don't just roll over and die without trying to kill people and retain their position in above society.
While it is an established strategy to try and reform peacefully through electoral politics (Democratic Socialism, not to be confused with Social Democracy), it often ends in a military coup so many communists will consider it a strategy not worth perusing. Look at Salvador Allende in Chile for an example of how this has played out (spoiler didn't arm the workers, so they couldn't defend when the military couped him to death and installed Pinochet). But, it's a valid school of thought so I'm not going to fully dismiss it, I'm just pointing out that it's one of the less popular solutions - we're in a class war and you don't win it by voting.
[cont'd]
Replies: >>713 >>783
Authoritarianism in Socialist Countries - Michael Parenti [6gtUaGV6mNI].opus
(4.8MB, 06:51)
This is a long response, but you've asked a solid question!

* [cont'd]
'Dictatorship' is an interesting dilemma for socialists. Plenty of schools of thought on this, and range within those schools of thought, anywhere from anarchists (put loosely, those who want to immediately abolish all states/'unjust hierarchy') all the way to 'Stalin/Mao/etc. did nothing wrong and ran a People's dictatorship of the proletariat', and all the in-between. The pro-dictator stance sees dictatorship, of some form whether by an internally-democratic party or by a leader, as necessary in the short term to defend a socialist revolution from counter-revolution by the powerful owning class. Audio clip related gives a quick rationale of this perspective, for more details perhaps start with Lenin's State and Revolution, which makes heavy reference to Engels and Marx. https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/
Side note: Leninism and the schools of thought branching from it (like Trotskyism and Stalinism aka. Marxism-Leninism oh god these names get confusing) are pro-DotP, believing a 'dictatorship of the proletariat' should replace the current 'dictatorship of the bourgeois' - even if you can vote, you're not effectively empowered enough to call this actual democracy.

I realize I've sort of run around your question instead of truly answering it, but ultimately my (or rather 'our' - I'm a collectivist working in an organization!) approach is to empower workers so to create systems where we can begin to dictate some of the terms of our employment, and work towards workers' understanding of the system we're in and what better world is possible. Empowering workers has to start with the simple stuff, like basic political education, forming and joining unions, making those unions not be spineless bureaucratic pieces of shit, learning to combat attacks on our rights, stuff like that. My eyes are honestly so focused on the short-term fundamentals that I don't have an ultimate cemented strategy. We need power before any of that matters.
Replies: >>714
>>710
Currently only retirees, some students and a good share of the upper class possess at least some of the priors, especially the material requirements for "idleness", for genuine participation in society as a free citizen with political agency. Other members of society tend to be easily manipulated, specialized snd dependent on wageslavery, atomized and with no claim to their own land or a living space where they are afforded proper self-development, attachment to the local community or a stable family. If these people make claims to their collective significance in any way, this necessarily involves some leadership figures from a bourgeios background. Unions are a good idea in principle, but a naive democratic approach will never work.
>>712
I do see a good strategy in advancing workers on more fundamental, economic issues first, but the telos of these more local organizations should be clear as well as the broader roadmap.
Replies: >>717
99aa7f25fe61c18d16aabee4f831b359aa008017966fa29d1f62d1e1d9ead8e2.webp
(67.6KB, 1043x775)
While you have a good point that wage slaves are politically restrained by the conditions of their jobs, this also provides some political power which non-workers (some retirees, students and upper class) don't have. A prominent recent example is how unions worked in the French pension protests, with garbage workers boycotting certain streets, electrical workers threatening to cut off politicians houses, and other forms of worker-led sabotage.
Laws do pacify this, for example the rail workers in the US were banned from striking by the Biden administration, so I'm not sure if this power aligns with what you mean by political agency, but at the end of the day, people working actually important jobs do have a position of material power which idle people don't have. Students can't shut down the economy alone, at least in the near term. But the better student organizations actually have relationships to the unions and help organize with them. For example, I've seen a construction union illegally strike in solidarity with a student and teachers protest this year.
>this necessarily involves some leadership figures from a bourgeios background. 
Maybe this is me nitpicking but I wouldn't say it requires any bourgeois background, because it can also be a professional working job funded by union members' dues. That's how large-scale unions generally operate, afaik. That gives the worker the time requirement to engage professionally in political activity on behalf of union members. This can be (but is not inherently) a form of representative democracy.

>but a naive democratic approach will never work
I'm also critical of mass open democracy. Even from a basic mathematical theory sense, it will lead to worse decisions, assuming the typical member is under-informed, which is usually the case on a large enough scale.
You might find this bunch of posts exploring conditional democracy interesting: >>245
One important highlight is that direct democracy is often held as an ideal because of the assumption (truer in small groups) that it empowers more people to feel invested in the system, rather than be alienated from politics by a dictator or panel making all the decisions anyway. So it's often encouraged for its social effect and appeal to majority, rather than its actual ability at making the best decisions.
Replies: >>723
the classic.webp
(75.9KB, 1710x1876)
the runner-up.webp
(40.3KB, 773x960)
>>714
>I do see a good strategy in advancing workers on more fundamental, economic issues first
I agree, because as co-workers we have so many common economic interests with each other, and in fact, with the overwhelming majority of people.
Cultural issues, to contrast with fundamental economic issues, just tend to be divisive and often unproductive, and easier for mass media to inflame conflict within. But it's not as easy for corporate propaganda and mass media to convince you that you shouldn't be paid more. Oh, it can and has been done sometimes, but I'd say it's much harder for them to win that fight.
That's a reason why you tend to see a lot of anti-idpol (identity politics) sentiment in socialist organizations, or at least the ones which aren't a circus. Economic issues are usually the main issue for the worker class.
my answer is (a), but with extra steps. universal sufferage and voting to elect people with agenda setting power. the sortition to randomly select large and demographically representative citizen juries who vote among themselves to settle the agenda set by elected officials. for example, take economic planning. the executives of the planning bureau would be elected, and their plans would go before a citizen jury selected by sortition for approval.
>>709 (OP) 
Thanks for your thoughtful and inquisitive post. I'll throw in my two cents while trying to keep more or less within the framework presented in the OP.

Points were already made about the politics of the everyday (at the workplace mostly), and I think it's here where we can find a path to more sophisticated engagement in politics, through the different "levels" you identified.

<1> Carrot and stick feedback
So people already engage in politics whether they realize it or not. The price of consumer goods is pretty often understood as reflecting some political situation, for example. So people already are engaged at least at this level, since their conditions are affected by politics (even if they don't meaningfully respond). Typically the way that people start acting is when their conditions noticeably worsen. However, political actors can motivate large movement by offering the "carrot"  to people. This includes politicians offering some beneficial programs, unions offering to bargain for better pay, or organizations like activists and mutual aid groups working on directly solving problems. It's both possible and common to go to the people with a positive political program. That provides the opportunity for them to become more active themselves and/or to become more politically aware. Once people have the direct experience that engagement at this level can make their situation better, a lot of them are open to moving to a more sophisticated understanding.

<2> Moral consensus
Part of the task of a political movement is to build a culture. In that process, you create a set of norms and values. That's more or less the basis in our social nature on which we can build an organization that is both functional and durable. When people have that kind of shared understanding, they are much more prone to stick together despite (high-level theoretical) differences. That has been, IMHO, a major weak point of socialist organizing in the past. Political involvement is often seen as merely a hobby, because for many it is merely a hobby. As Marx predicted, the radical potential of the workers would arise not simply out of the immiseration of the workers (stick) nor the intellectual advancement (principle), but out of the forging of a new social fabric in the industrial centers, where workers would be concentrated into a mass of people with common interests and common experiences, who tend toward organizing because of the solidarity that formed between them. Before they recognize abstract ideas like the nature of wage and profit, they first recognize shared sentiments with their fellow workers and shared antipathy towards the employer. This is an important step, one that is frequently overlooked. And it's here that I think it becomes apparent that political engagement exists mainly in a hierarchy. The higher level of abstraction and principle is of critical importance, but it rests on these lower levels or else it deviates, unmoored from its connection to the people or sometimes even reality. That is, historically, how the movement has splintered into opportunism.

<3> Principled ethics
In the process of organizing people for political action, education is of great importance. This is true both in the immediate, practical sense (how do we go about effecting change?) and in the broader theoretical and historical sense (where are we going with this?). Once you have people who are motivated by interest (carrot and stick) and "part of the team" (moral consensus), you can much more readily build and understanding based in a bona fide political theory. After some involvement in the struggle it will naturally become apparent that strategizing and theorizing is important to success. Victories my be won without this, but they are less likely and more costly. In a typical organization, however, you will usually have theoretical understanding at least within the leadership. There are likely members and associates at various levels of engagement, with an intentionally developed process for guiding people to the "higher levels." This functions best in combination with waging struggle for improving workers' conditions, because it allows them more opportunity for self-development, including political development. This is how you build a revolutionary organization, anyway.

There are of course some pitfalls to the above, ways that any of these levels of engagement can be disrupted or derailed, particularly if the others are missing or weak. Which ones can you identify and how could they be defended against?

>How would you approach this issue without just A. giving everyone a vote and trusting that there will be some golden mean (doesn't work), B. calling for an uprising or a dictatorship or C. demanding handouts?
< giving everyone a vote
A revolutionary organization is self-selecting, so anybody who is a dues-paying member or equivalent is already going to be engaged at a "higher level" than normal. That may or may not be enough. Some organizations reserve some or all decision making for the leadership a la vanguardism. That's likely overkill in most situations, and involvement in decision making at a "lower" level of engagement can work well as a part of one's political education. That's not just voting either, but the other parts of the process as well, from drafting the decisions to debating and deciding what to vote on. The more involved people get, the more inclined they will be towards engaging at a "higher level" to keep up with the process and their peers. In a socialist society political education is a high priority, so that the people can exercise political power effectively and keep the movement alive.
< calling for an uprising or a dictatorship
While it's most likely inevitable that a revolutionary uprising will occur, you are correct that it is pointless to simply demand this here and now. And of course, "dictatorship" or any similar style of rule is generally disfavorable to the people and arguably antithetical to socialist development (if there is a ruler, they are usually disinclined to allow the intellectual development of their subjects). Sometimes socialists will speak of a "dictatorship of the proletariat" which is something quite different from simply a (nominally) communist party in power. It uses an archaic meaning of the word and refers to a transition period where the working class exercises political power to transform society by assuming control, in place of the capitalist class, who presently rule through a "dictatorship of the bourgeoisie."
< handouts
One of the most emphatic points to be made about socialism is that the wealth of society comes from labor to begin with, mainly that of the toiling masses. By this token, it is ours by "right." Rather than simply offering welfare through redistribution, the point is to give people a share of the value they are creating, and an understanding of it as such. There is much greater pride in that social wealth when you understand your contribution to it, and when you actually have a say in what is done with it (as opposed to your employer taking most of it to do with as they please). This reconfiguring of production and material wealth is one of the great attractors to socialism, and can be found presently in many working class organizations now, whether they are revolutionary or not. It's a mode of production and distribution that people find favorable, and what people tend to default to in social contexts without an imposed class structure.
Replies: >>724
>>715
That political power innate to the participation in labor itself is limited by the exercise of state force and unscrupulous corporate practices. The workers (which now comprises a lot of people outside of industry, agriculture and transportation, the most vital sectors which have been automated to a great extent) have effectively been at the mercy of wealthier groups of people who are much better organized, more coherent in their agends and can employ resources far beyond what used to be accessible to haute bourgeios members in the early 20th century. Technology and social progress moved in a corrupt relationship towards each other, which has been taken as a rise in quality of life overall but at the same time made democracy as we know it completely obsolete. Unions used to be a great tool, but you would need a core group of highly sophisticated socialists to accomplish it in the context of rising automation within the main rising corporate forces in Big Tech and what is now facilitated via ecommerce. 

The power of the laborers is contingent on the value that they contribute to the economy. I do not see it increase in the foreseeable future. 

Addressing your remark about models of conditional democracy: I am a full believer that with the internet and other advances such as in blockchain technology and zero-knowledge frameworks, one should be able to devise a system with an entirely transparent form of governance and an anonymous pool of candidates from which the actual electorate would be selected based on raw competence and psychometric measures. You could use an entirely open algorithm to sift through a sea of political volunteers with a few significant objective criteria and very minimal costs. 

This could lead to a better democratic process which is more efficient and might please a lot of the cynics who justifiably disengaged.
Replies: >>725 >>784
>>720
Group motivation and other more psychological factors are subject to large scale intelligence operations through both legacy media as well as supposed alternative social platforms. Yes it would be ideal to foster more of a productive consensus among laborers across sectors and shape the culture within these corporations in such a way as to sabotage their frameworks. 

I do see more value in focusing on how leaders and adjacent "high value contributors" organize, placing a greater emphasis on intelligence gathering, strong mentorship and alternative ecosystems where more similar, likeminded socialists can thrive, independent from the corporate machinery and the more erratic mess on the right.
>>723
Sidenote: 

Alternative ecosystems could attach themselves to current trends in sustainable agriculture, more traditional health practices, a return to the involvement of qualified tradesmen in real estate development (building houses and infrastructure of higher quality) and open source projects, which includes developments in AI. There are probably other convenient niches that I am missing. Especially given the formation of a "stuck culture", people generally seek higher quality consumer goods which the big capitalists seem to no longer be incentivized to provide.
>>710
>At most it would be a gasp of air for people struggling to keep their heads above water, but ultimately a coping mechanism for dealing with capitalism's failure to provide for the poorer workers.
A systemized hangout solution would remove from statistical existence the poorer workers as they'd be moved into a category where their income is now sufficient to have a good living. Either this would happen in a hybrid society with still a portion of capitalism being active therefore proving in some way that capitalism has provided albeit in an indirect way what these once poorer people needed, or it's not capitalist anymore and then who cares because we have finally got rid of it and moved to a better and fairer model. The risk being that most people satisfied with the handouts wouldn't really care about owning anything, especially the means of production, which would then turn into a solid victory for capitalism if one could just turn an eye on this little concession, however heres another issue, why would such a system need being changed if the poor people arent poor anymore? would they care much if they cant afford their own jet plane if their lives were nice and cozy and if they could enjoy high quality public services and goods? Capitalists would keep doing their capitalist shit above but the people would be best served with communism all around.
>As for B: You can't just 'call for an uprising' and expect that to work without actually organizing people, but most socialists believe some kind of revolution is ultimately necessary, and the capitalists don't just roll over and die without trying to kill people and retain their position in above society.
Hard to achieve without much men, weapons and a lot of money. This money is in the hands of the people we want gone. The easiest target would be that low hanging fruit of the petite bourgeoisie: assaulted, despoiled until we can move one step above, but the higher we'd go the more the bourgeois would call for support by the state police and army so we cant achieve anything if we dont have considerable numbers not just in unions in companies but our own people in the police and the army, which have traditionally been averse to our views and going full ACAB will certainly not win us any numbers either. Any idea short of a complete collapse of the economy?
>>723
How do you wrestle democracy out of the hands of those who construct and modify it with their vast sums of money? Democracy is theirs to control. If it were only that simple and I also have the feeling that the original and genuine fight has been largely thwarted by the injection of the very divisive LGBT red herring, which importance is so much louder than it would have naturally been without the support from the haute bourgeoisie. We let a typical western concern sabotage the great work that was the entire focus on the eastern forces. I know this may not be very popular here but i am more than enthusiastic that Russia and China have filtered the LGBT topic out with their hardline stances so we can focus on the real issue at hand and hopefully resume things were they were left around the late 80s. Too much time has been wasted and there is no doubt to me that great capitalist forces are behind this political digression.
>>709 (OP) 
pretty women, but their skin looked fake. I bet they're greek or something
[New Reply]
14 replies | 5 files
Connecting...
Show Post Actions

Actions:

- news - rules - faq - privacy - stats -
fusion 1.7.0