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This is a thread about parties, orgs, unions, aid and all the rest.
Post your experiences, wins, questions and rants.
My union has been getting some surprising wins lately, it's a pretty mediocre one and benefits are the same for people not in the union but still I'm glad I joined.
It's also refreshing to see a surprising amount of support for them, in a sector that typically doesn't bother with collective bargaining.
Replies: >>548
I feel like the local orgs just kind of... exist. They hold meetings, join protests, own a bookstore, and a couple have political candidates who get one or two percent of the vote at most. I seriously wonder if I'd be better off helping some distant org that actually has a chance, you know?
Replies: >>42 >>114
>>35
I can't think of a single org in my country worth piss (UK) the youth wing of the CPB the YCL has some solid people, but ultimately they will al get funnelled into the CPB which is completely ossified and total trash, recently tweeting about how Keir Starmer will be a victory for the working class. They do however have some presence in the trade union movement. 

On the other hand, you have CPGB-ML which is more or less a collection of mal adjusted nerds from school who have the right positions on most things but the social skills and community building prowess of an XL bully gone rogue in a playground 

Then there are various lib left/trot orgs of the sort I imagine you are all accustomed to, but there is honestly so many I couldn't even name. All of them tiny and ineffective,remnants and rags of SWP splits on splits. 

For those who don't know, the SWP was a fairly sizeable trot movement that had prominence in the late 70s through early 2000s, but ultimately came to fuck all. They were actually quite based and did a fair amount of good shit, inarguably the most successful explicitly communist movement post war Britain has seen. 

That said, the legacy is a million micro orgs, each with a handful of aging grey haired men with fairly backward social politics and a safe career in the trade union bureaucracy. 

 I would love to get into detail about the effect that relationship has on the british left. Maybe I'll have a stab. 

Basically what happens is you get involved in orgs, these guys, using their in built clout and knowledge of their position in 50 years of labour struggle, combined with usually a kind of over bearing personality, which is sort of half earned at the same time, first impress younger members, and then draw them in to the disfunction of the machine. 

The youth will come up will ideas, they will have a million and one reasons why actually, doing just what we have been doing for years is the correct way, despite years of failure and mediocrity. The fault is never with them or what they've done, they always have some anecdote from days of yore to draw on, if not some quote from lenin/trotsky etc. They tend towards softer anti imperialism or outright imperial collaboration. 

Now that said, these guys are often basically the only guys holding the torch for a more militant trade union approach within the unions themselves, but that is basically what is is, holding a torch, make sure the embers don't got out. You feel for them, but on the other hand, you hate them. 

Around them social networks and career pipelines are created, and the whole thing sustains itself in this way, the upstart youth willing to play the game to get into their good books, become the new set of organisers on a comfortable enough salary they can coast on, while still feeling good about themselves, they become old and then they've the same self serving positions. The whole thing lacks any energy or even really care. 

I'll post about my positive org experiences maybe later tonight
https://twitter.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1707020361110319580

>Over 50,000 service industry workers in Las Vegas have voted to authorize a strike.

>@Culinary226
 announced that 95% of the workers voted to give the union the power to call a strike.

>This means Vegas bartenders, housekeepers, cooks and more could strike at any time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw7SqZ6OUmM
Replies: >>57
>>55
95%, that's what I like to hear. Luckily for them Vegas I've heard isn't the mobster paradise it used to be.
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>talking to a co-worker and a few other friends in another company (same job but different industry, so they're not union but we are)
>pay comes up and i mention the collective bargaining the union did
>oh yeah, i remember co-worker was helping put up the union posters at work!
>ask them a question about the union
<oh idk, i'm not really, uh,
>ah, so you participate but you're not a rep, alright...
<no, im actually not in the union. i just like putting up their posters at work to cause trouble and chaos with HR
Fuck it, one struggle.
my union had a small win with contracts this year, at least they're much much better than the initial offers.
Anybody else been out at Palestine demos? Best energy of anything I've been at ever. Obviously, thats a direct result of it being the biggest tragedy of my lifetime, I was too young for Iraq war protests but I feel like this will be extremely radicalising for a lot of young people
Replies: >>89 >>100 >>192
>>88
I haven't been out at the recent ones yet (had a schedule clash) but they've been huge. Saw some chill Lebanese protesters on a train, police presence along the train stations was so huge you'd think there was a bomb threat.
Replies: >>330
>>88
I went and I'm glad I did.
At first I'll admit I felt a bit purposeless, tens of thousands of people plus one is tens of thousands of people and I showed up without a role or group. I did quickly notice the various activist orgs with fold-up tables handing out fliers at the main points of entry, mostly socialist orgs and the environmentalist electoral party (mainstream progressives). I'm used to seeing all these same groups at the designated protest square in the city, however it was useful to see them in a place like this: the trade unions showing solidarity had a gathering place right near the center. I talked to one of the unionists handing out fliers for a few upcoming events and it was insightful to see which socialist party was favored by the unionists and collaborating with them... obviously not the large notorious 'buy my magazine' parasite org off on their own away from all the other organizations, but it was one which I had a couple of doubts about from reading their website. And, when I did talk to someone from that org and ask if the petition was their own or a collective effort, they quickly brought up the trade unions and discussed their importance. It's refreshing to get on-the-ground confirmation from both sides. Most of all, it was wonderful to see the diversity of the movement, all the unions and all the little flags popping up in the mix - Ireland, Iraq, Iran, Bosnia, you name it. I even saw one tactless trot from an obscure org in a plain red shirt with a yellow hammer sickle, a small subtitle saying Viet nam, and a DPRK flag on their hat... have fun with that.
The march was invigorating and there were no incidents, only one cop was being uptight and telling children to walk one meter to the left please for no fucking reason, one other cop was clearly filming on their phone for social media. The police are less intimating when there are thousands of us.
During the march of literally tens of thousands of people through the narrow city streets, I saw a couple of older teens walk up to the road to cross it. Pedestrian light goes green. I look at them, they look back and we start laughing. 'Good luck!' That said, everyone was friendly and it was easy enough to cross the black, green and red sea when anyone tried.
Replies: >>102 >>103 >>181
>>100
I know what you mean about the purposeless feeling, like you arrive at this guy march by yourself and just kinda wander in, start walking with people. 

I always take a good 20 minutes to warm up, sometimes its good to find a good patch in the crowd where there is strong chanting and try to add to that, nothing worse than being in the weak chant section. Near somebody with a mic is usually a good bet. 

I've been at a few now. Went to one the other day and was thinking like "fuck this is lame" then kinda out of nowhere the organisers had us all sitting down blocking traffic, in a crowd of a few hundred, and managed to get the chanting solid and good, and suddenly it all clicked, there was a much greater feeling of togetherness. Big difference between something well organised and something haphazard, like big crowds of half normies do need direction, but once you get it going it really spreads
Replies: >>104 >>109 >>205
>>100
the presence of the Gazebo trotskyists I have mixed feelings on. I feel like they are just out to propogandise for their own ends, and have a tendency to deradicalise things
Replies: >>104
>>102
>Went to one the other day and was thinking like "fuck this is lame"
Honestly did feel like that early on after the initial novelty of a large crowd wore off. Then I found a couple of interesting and friendly characters among the crowd (particularly the trade unionists), just little things that make it fun.
There was also someone selling some basic merch and cookies, would be nice if someone brought in some Palestinean snacks. I know the Ottomans have some great stuff like baklava. Little things like that which make it more than just yelling or listening to speakers.

I'm not expecting this main general-audience section to do anything radical or ad-hoc like sitting on a road (which is also very very very illegal here now after climate protesters did it in a major area), but there are smaller explicit side protests that most of the orgs handed out flyers for, like details on the international Israeli trade blockade effort.

>>103
>the presence of the Gazebo trotskyists I have mixed feelings on.
Surprisingly, one of the actually-good orgs I was skeptical about appeared to be a Trot org from research online, but someone with the unions suggested they were non-sectarian, which is nice. Of course, the shitty asshole org are exactly what you're talking about, but rather than deradicalizing they just crash events despite being asked not to come, to propagandize. But I'd guess its hard to say no to hundreds of people in a mass event looking primarily for large numbers, when most of the people actually showing up are sincere uni students rather than the horrid leadership.
>>102
>in a crowd of a few hundred, and managed to get the chanting solid and good
We had a few too many characters starting their own chants in each different part of the crowd, even while the invited speakers were trying to speak.
During the march I did see one of the small org groups, I think it was the half-a-dozen M-Ls, who had their megaphone setup working wonderfully, with two chanters and a conductor in front to coordinate them.
>>35
I wonder how to interpret the fact that the electoralist org in my country has a few sitting council members scattered around the country, including a couple of absolutely rural places, but none anywhere near their headquarters, right in one of the two most progressive towns of the country, where they basically come up dead last, behind all the YouTuber lolbert schizos.
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Getting on-the-ground information from orgs has been much better than through even online socialist circles. That said, here is a collection of information gathered online, so keep in mind there may also be participants we don't know.

For those not aware, there have been a few shipping unions already boycotting shipping to Israel, including companies believed to ship weapons and other military aid. This is already manifesting internationally:
In USA, protestors at Port of Oakland and Port of Tacoma delayed a military delivery ship by 9 and 12 hours respectively.
>[In Oakland,] at least one worker aboard the ship appeared to express solidarity by raising their fist, blowing kisses, and giving them thumbs up.
While I haven't seen them explicitly linked to the current protests, I suspect the International Longshore Workers Union is assisting, as they have done previously with Israel boycotting in recent years.

In Belgium, the ACV Puls, BTB, BBTK and ACV-Transcom unions said in a joint statement that airport workers have seen arms shipments going to Israel, and alongside other unions have called on workers to stop handling shipments.

In Spain, the Union of Dock Workers in Barcelona (OEPB) have also declared refusal to ship any weapons to Israel.

In Italy, dockworkers affiliated to the Unione Sindacale di Base and Sindacato Intercategoriale Cobas are supporting boycotts of weapon transfers in Italian ports, specifically the Israeli ZIM shipping line, a major transporter of armaments.

In Australia, the ports of Melbourne and Port Botany (Sydney) have seen hundreds of protesters blocking ZIM shipments, with a heavy socialist and union presence and Maritime Union of Australia workers 'going slow' during loading and unloading and tipping off protesters ahead of ZIM's attempted reschedule after hours of delay.

In the UK, I haven't seen any news on shipping although trade unions have blockaded an arms factory in Kent.
>They said the group included health workers, teachers, hospitality workers, academics, artists and more who are members of eight trade unions.

In general, the people organizing citizen shipping protests like in USA and Australia must be tipped off about shipping schedules to organize their blockade actions. This is the work of industry insiders, most likely union members with the connections, although admittedly it could also be done by an individual rogue actor. So remember, when you see these protests there's probably a trade union in the background.
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There was also a recent roadblock of the Port of Auckland (NZ), which saw arrests and police violence like the US and Aus protests, seemingly more egregious with pepper spray and tackling. While I can't confirm if the protest was actually blocking Israeli trade at the time, it's certainly noteworthy.
>The group were calling for a ceasefire in Gaza and want a boycott of shipments to and from Israel.
>Protesters were also asking workers to go on strike as a show of support for Palestinians.
>Some port workers tooted their horns in support of the protesters. Others watched while the protesters tried to enlist their support.
>A truck driver waiting in the carpark said he had been held up for three hours while trying to bring his truck into the port. He said many other trucks had also had their movements held up.
The Maritime Union of New Zealand released a statement ahead of the protest, beginning with these lines:
>The Maritime Union of New Zealand says it supports the right of the community to take part in peaceful protests at ports and elsewhere.
>Community protests are planned against Israeli-connected container ships at the Port of Auckland as international pressure mounts for a ceasefire in the Gaza conflict. 
>The Contship Dax operated by ZIM Integrated Shipping has already been the focus of protest action in Australian ports last week and the ship will be calling in New Zealand ports in the next week, including Tauranga, Auckland and Lyttelton.
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>I've been at a few now. Went to one the other day and was thinking like "fuck this is lame"
My nearby ones are big city marches so they aren't doing any radical action, just a planned march around the city blocks with police lining the route. It becomes a lot less 'fuck this is lame' if you're talking to unions or handing out leaflets. Even if you don't like any of the orgs, you can find a leaflet you like (such as getting people on a list for taking direct actions against weapons manufacture/trade) and ask them if you can hand a bunch of them out, the org people will probably say yes and thank you.
Handing out leaflets also gives you a pretext to find interested people and chat with them. A pleb filter of sorts.
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An article from an anarchist poking fun at all the Trot orgs in the British left. A little outdated but definitely relatable.
https://libcom.org/article/trotspotting-everything-you-always-wanted-know-about-sects-were-afraid-ask
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>at rally rn
>local minister basically said 'fuck the police' to all the cops surrounding the rally, telling them they're complicit in genocide
>union speaker got everyone to chant 'Workers of the World Unite'.
Replies: >>151
>>150
It's great to see in some of the smaller rallies the socialists get a chance to speak and explain the active role of the industrial unions rather than just hanging on the peripheries handing out pamphlets and, well, being annoying. It would be great to see them getting some stage time or even airtime.
>>100
>I even saw one tactless trot from an obscure org in a plain red shirt with a yellow hammer sickle, a small subtitle saying Viet nam, and a DPRK flag on their hat... have fun with that.
Saw this one again recently. To clarify, their org strongly declares itself as Trotskyist. Yet this member was holding up sign with an explicit pro-China slogan.
I don't care enough to ask them what's up with that bizarre combination.
>>88
Unfortunately these are finally beginning to shrink to a few hundred people here, although the more radical protests during the week (politician offices, government buildings) are pretty sizable.
Replies: >>217
>>102
Last week some people tried to get the march to sit out the front of Starbucks along the road while they chant. Most of the marchers apparently had no idea what was going on, but it was a welcome change.
>>192
I think that was bound to happen around Christmas when people had other stuff on their mind + it was cold, weather was shit. The ones here in the UK had slightly fizzled but there was a huge one yesterday and apparently the one next week will be the biggest yet
Replies: >>219
>>217
>but there was a huge one yesterday
<Hundreds of the protesters joined a sit-in on the bridge, with some staging a die-in, laying down and refusing to leave.
Noice. Do teabags typically go on holidays at this time of year? Because I can see why they'd be optimistic about the week after then.
Replies: >>220
>>219
Not really, January is when everyone is back to work/uni/school and skint from Christmas, start saving and planning for the year kinda deal, but also you're sort still on that pause kinda vibe from Christmas/new year so warming up not in fool swing, doing new years resolutions etc. 

In terms of protesting, less people are gonna be hungover or able to spend money to do other things, so will be on the streets. Maybe a few people took a new years resolution to get to this sort of thing more as well but thats probably a minor factor.
Replies: >>221
>>220
I'm guessing this one would have made a few extra rounds in the news with blocking a bridge. That kind of thing might draw extra attention and bring bored people back to the next one.
Replies: >>223
>>221
I am a big believer in that. Like it or not, there is a large section of the population, particularly young males, particularly those of the types that might otherwise forego protesting i.e. testerone fuelled little shits, that are attracted to basically causing trouble. 

I think the UK left has lost a lot of these people, because assorted socdems and trots demonised this sort of behaviour on marches saying it put people off yee saintly "normal people". I'm not really convinced it puts off anybody who wouldn't be offput anyway, and what you gain in young lumpen energy is more than you lose, in my calculations. 

I know scores of people growing up anecdotally who would have called walking down a street and chanting for the innocent children gay, literally. Sad but true. 

If you said they were gonna square up to cops and shut down the city centre, they would have been up for it just for the ruckus, a portion of them might have then gone on to get more involved.
Replies: >>224
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>>223
>I know scores of people growing up anecdotally who would have called walking down a street and chanting for the innocent children gay, literally. Sad but true. 
I can't blame them. A standard protest and march looks impotent and passive.
Even without worrying about heightened testosterone and manliness (which you're right about), a protest is like begging - until they block roads and paint buildings, then it comes off as being a public nuisance. Good!
Most people can recognize there's a systematic issue enraging them, someone needs to be fought, so we're just going to ask their permission to yell in a corner? It is weak. That said, it's a tactic which mustn't be dismissed. It's a safe way to build wide reach and support, which is best to have before getting into more direct mass tactics.
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>action committee meeting an hour ago between socialists and various anarchists
>anarchists emphasize a need for horizontal structure and democracy
Alright, that sounds reasonab-
>one of them proposes that Palestinian members be a group given special veto powers
>there are only two Palestinians present
>then they try to redefine it to be not just Palestinians, but 'people who properly understand the situation of Palestinians' to try and insert themselves into the veto group
>basically everyone except for members of a trot org votes for this veto group
fukken idpol...
Replies: >>237
>>230
jesus christ. This is the kind of shit that made me very tired of going to meetings.
Replies: >>239
>>237
The kicker is that apparently afterwards, people were already saying the regretted or didn't understand the vote. Disappointing if true.
Replies: >>245
>>239
I have kind of a lot of thoughts around that sort of thing. Not even really related to idpol but basically, I came to realise that voting within some orgs was basically worthless, because while some people, the core organisers, had spent a long time debating the minutae of policy, getting an awarness and nuanced position, when that then goes to the wider org, people haven't gone through this process. 

I had the realisation when I voted for something, then spent a bit of time in the organisation, and realised my vote was completely stupid at the time. It was a vote that won at the time also. 

Its not to say I'm anti voting or democracy in orgs, but there really needs to be this highly engaged process, which is by necessity somewhat long term, in order to make the thing as effective as possible. 

Thinking about it in idealist terms of democracy is the problem I think. Democracy needs to be thought of as kinda mass distributed computation, utilising extra mind power, rather than just adding a bunch of faulty software to the process.
Replies: >>253 >>255 >>305
>>245
I'd like to take some time to properly analyse democracy, it's something I haven't really dived into.
You've basically hypothesised Condorcet's jury theorem, which concludes that, if each voter is more than 50% likely to vote correctly, then more people voting will lead to an increasingly high chance of the correct result. The opposite is also true: if the average person is less than 50% likely to vote correctly, adding more people makes it less likely to get the correct result. Adding more mind power only works if the minds are trustworthy, and people who are more experienced in the org will be more likely to be informed, experienced and thoughtful enough to make their vote productive. A random newcomer who isn't experienced or dedicated is probably going to have an unhelpful vote (whether correct or not).
From the theorem, an alright leader who dictates correctly 75% of the time is less likely to be correct than a commitee of 10 people who are each correct 66% of the time, but both are better than 100 people who are right 51% of the time.
If your justification for using full democracy is to come to correct decisions, it only works if the average person is informed. A quick glance at mainstream politics is all the practical evidence we need for that.

But, that's not the only reason democracy is favoured. There are other reasons, like consent of the governed. Sure, it's a little bit spooky and ideal, but ultimately people may feel more empowered and believe a group is more legitimate because of its democratic rule. Being powerless in a group could be alienating to members. Is avoiding that more important than being right every time?
Replies: >>255 >>258
>>245
>>253
A proposed solution to this issue is an epistocratic system, where those with political knowledge are allowed to vote.
Obviously, this implies the problem of how to fairly verify a voter is knowledgeable or at least competent enough to have an informed vote. If one were to just approximate competence by taking experience (membership age) or someone's position in an organization, then it's really just an oligarchy, or technocracy at best (and that may actually be an appropriate system in some cases, but for some projects or proposals it risks alienating most members from the decision process through being undemocratic).
However, I believe the following system could be adequate at filtering ignorant people while avoiding unfair bias from the filter.
>get an expert or two from each side of the proposal
>negotiate a list of material facts about the situation, which the conflicting experts all agree on
>this becomes a quiz which members must pass (e.g. 80%) to qualify for voting on the issue. Hopefully that margin of error (20%) is enough to cover any valid disagreements the experts may have overlooked.
You could even send out the fact list ahead of time, to help people intending to vote to understand the issue first, bringing them up to a level where their vote is useful, and also to allow people to question the experts if they've overlooked a valid objection. The answers to the questions being revealed upfront doesn't corrupt the process, rather it educates the potential voters because it's a knowledge test, not an intelligence test.

I haven't studied epistocracy at all so I'll quickly read about it, especially any criticism of it, but it does seem to be a promising compromise between idealist democracy and elitist oligarchy.
(I do realize it's ironically similar to the corrupted action committee we were criticizing, where 'people who properly understand the situation' were given an elevated position.)
>>253
>but ultimately people may feel more empowered and believe a group is more legitimate because of its democratic rule. Being powerless in a group could be alienating to members. Is avoiding that more important than being right every time?

nah this part is super important. Particularly for a small group, or revolutionary group, where membership is entirely voluntary and relies on people putting in a lot of effort. 

The other thing a fully fleshed out democracy does is: you said the bit about senior members of the group being more likely to be informed, but also, as a senior member they are in more of a position to abuse their seniority, which can corrupt the whole thing. 

Correctness is one part of the equation, the other is how hardy the system is against internal corruption. 

I came out in that other post sounding sort of anti democratic maybe, but actually I think what I advocate for is an even more engaged form of democracy. 

 As you spell out, just flinging votes at things isn't necessarily the best. On the other hand, we can all see the problems where power is concentrated in the hands of the few. 

Of course the ideal is then democracy of informed voters, which is obviously the hardest to get in reality, but at the same time, we've been doing the others for years and they are fairly shit. 

As well, when you come back to the thing where people like to feel empowered, I think they are more likely to become informed, to bother to inform themselves, if it actually makes a difference. So many people in the UK just don't give a fuck because really, why would you, nothing changes, why waste your precious years on earth. They are right. 

 Within a system that took dedicated time to informing and engaging the citizens in democracy, participation is much greater, and we do see this in socialist experiements, even today in places like Bolivia, the MAS party is based entirely on mass engagement and it is hugely successful. That kind of ideology is the backbone of Latin American socialism maybe more than anywhere else in the world
Replies: >>259
>>258
That's important to point out the ideal role of democracy as an anti-corruption measure, I skipped right over that. When voters are empowered in a good-faith democracy, it allows them to remove abusive leaders, but we all can see how it has failed to prevent the current failed electoral system from developing. I'm not saying this to dismiss democracy, but to point out decentralisation of power seems potent but not sufficient to prevent internal corruption.

>we've been doing the others for years and they are fairly shit. 
One system we haven't been doing is epistocracy. I honestly don't know if it has even been tried in practice.
It's basically a qualified democracy, still aiming for widespread participation (the strength of democracy) while factoring in knowledge (avoiding the pitfall of a letting the ignorant dominate the decision process, without becoming an elite technocracy either).

There seem to be a couple of distinct ways that epistocracy is described. The first is what I've been talking about, only people who display basic competency can vote. I believe this can be easily done in practice, how I described before. The second way I've seen it described is a weighted vote, where everyone votes but more knowledgeable people have their vote count more. I think this is an  idealistic non-solution - firstly it doesn't prevent the dominance of a few, and secondly how can you measure knowledge in a useful way? IQ tends to get proposed, which we all should know is rubbish and ignores context, and you can't really measure expertise without just allowing that same corruption you described. Plus, so far  I can't think of a lineat measurement technique which wouldn't be prone to bias and corruption. I suggest ignoring that crap and sticking with the first proposal, where there is a basic competency test to allow a voter to vote.

Incidentally, I suspect merely having a low but ultimate barrier to vote will actively incentivise people to seek education and encourage a society of informed voters.
Replies: >>260
>>259
Its a pretty difficult question because wherever there is a barrier to vote, is always somebody setting that barrier and stipulations, and in class society, this is often a person enforcing a class interest. 

I suppose going down that line of thinking, I'm not really sure barriers that can't be abused can be set. Maybe if as you say they are very low, but still there. 

Thing is if its for example, a history test, you can have any old idiot memorise a bunch of dates and events, doesn't mean they can apply critical thinking to them. 

But if you want the test to be about critical thinking, its always going to involve somebody judging their crit, and that is almost always going to be subjective, and then we come back around to the abuse thing. 

Incidentally, David Graeber talks a lot about these questions in his book: the democracy project. Its pretty good, about why occupy wall street failed from the perspective of somebody who organised it, intertwined with a lot of anthropological/historical stuff about democracy.

The system you propose where the two sets of opposing experts agree on some key facts is interesting and definitely sounds agreeable. My questions are: can you get two sets of opposing experts to agree on such a set of facts and also, who choses the experts in the first place. 

I suppose its sort of a formalised version of process of debate, where experts are used, I guess that is supposed to be what happens in a normal liberal democracy, just the experts are selected via the various political parties 

It does get down to a lot of epistemological questions, hence the name I guess, like what is a fact, who gets to decide.
Replies: >>261
>>260
>Its a pretty difficult question because wherever there is a barrier to vote, is always somebody setting that barrier and stipulations, and in class society, this is often a person enforcing a class interest. [...] I guess that is supposed to be what happens in a normal liberal democracy, just the experts are selected via the various political parties
You have a good point here, at the end of the day my proposal is still vulnerable to the same issues that US electoral politics has, if both sides are able to collude then it breaks the process. I've been thinking about this in the context of organizational politics, where a good-faith democracy has a far better hope and participants are more able to actively hold the leadership accountable.

>Thing is if its for example, a history test, you can have any old idiot memorise a bunch of dates and events, doesn't mean they can apply critical thinking to them. 
That's true, but at least we know they understand the context and aren't going in blind or naïve, detached from the situation.
It would have to be an objective test to prevent assessment bias and to make the test questions agreeable. When I say the two sides agree on some relevant facts, they can't be opinions or interpretations, which is also relevant to this insight:
>I suppose its sort of a formalised version of process of debate
"We should support the Palestine rallies" is an extremely-agreeable opinion, "Bringing our members to the Palestine rallies can get supporters involved in our organization" is a factual statement. Even someone who thinks the org shouldn't spend time in the rallies can accept that's a relevant fact.
So I'd distinguish it from a debate because it's less about presenting arguments and more about agreeing on the objective environment which the arguments take place in. The resulting test can be compared to mandatory pre-reading to make sure your opinion is informed, even if idiotic or stubborn.
You touched on an important issue which the education system struggles with: it's very hard to measure qualitative things, such as understanding and critical analysis, as opposed to memorizing facts and parroting the arguments of others, and even harder to convert that into a quantitative measurement like a simple score or ranking. That's the task which the workforce places on the education system.

>I suppose its sort of a formalised version of process of debate, where experts are used, I guess that is supposed to be what happens in a normal liberal democracy, just the experts are selected via the various political parties 
I've heard some governments do something related to that for referendum votes, where the parliament publish and distribute an official guide, listing the major arguments for each side. They have some of those flaws you pointed out, and are much closer to a formalized debate format.
The weekly protests in my city have changed day recently so I'm able to attend, and after the recent attacks I suspect there will be a resurgence of interest. There's also an upcoming blockade action so it's a good opportunity to pull people into a more direct level of action.
>one of the bigger local orgs is explicitly anti-idpol
oh wonderful luck, this has been great
>shitty yet dominant trot org is actively sabotaging other orgs in my area in anti-Israel protests on campus
It's actually disgusting and they have full-spectrum hatred on-campus due to their garbage bahavior, they'll even change phone numbers to pester people who block them. You can actually recruit just by saying 'We're socialists, and we're not [org name].'
>get on train from the campus to move to the city center
>shitgroup try to report other socialist groups to the train staff for 'being a nuisance' or whatever
>train staff say 'no. deal with it'
>lol
>protesters are being told by organizers to get off at the next stop
>get off
>
>shitgroup doesn't get off
>ruh roh
>they had spread a rumor just to try and get the second biggest org to leave the train and arrive late to the protest
>but all the fresh tag-alongs from the campus got off too because, duh, they weren't told it was a trick and the other org were obviously going to let the tag-alongs know when to get off too
>other orgs and tags just march their way into the city anyway because they're the majority now
>idiots schemed themselves out of the protest, and betrayed all the prime recruits
Absolute cartoon shit. I'm going to start ripping down their conference posters.
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>went to org+union meeting
>you can immediately tell who's in the org and who's in the trade union by how casually they swear
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Finally starting to see some organized movement within the union. It's small, but it will hopefully build.
>>245 (et al)
I attended two inaugural meetings for action groups in two days, and I noticed that both had people eager to bring up the idea of consensus voting vs. majority vote. Democracy is certainly a valued tool in these groups, that can't be dismissed.
In fact, one of the groups partly formed because the Palestinian group currently organizing the marches is undemocratic and stubborn, unwilling to use their reach to help push participants into actually useful actions, or march in anywhere but the same place, same time, week in, week out for half a year.
Replies: >>309
>>305
>the Palestinian group currently organizing the marches is undemocratic and stubborn, unwilling to use their reach to help push participants into actually useful actions, or march in anywhere but the same place, same time, week in, week out for half a year.
Sounds like the right thing to do, no use letting all the potential be squandered by a shitty action group.
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Here's a fun new high-octane drinking game!
>go to WSWS
>ctrl+F "pseudo-left"
>sip once for each match
The front page alone gives you 10 sips. Basically, any group that works alongside unions will earn a petty rant from the old farts at the SEP about how every other form of organization is a right-wing controlled opposition.
Replies: >>423
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>go to nearby university campus to protest visiting Tel Aviv University reps and weapons industry presence
>university calls campus security to come defend the zionists
>campus security are lebanese
UH OH!
Replies: >>315
>>314
Haha, poetic justice. Got the same thing happening over here.
<Hello guards? Please help us oppress your brothers!
>no
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>go to direct action
>wake up the next morning to listen to all the news stations cry about it
>>89
honestly I think disproportionate police presence is a radicalizing influence to sheltered liberals showing up to state-permitted protests. it helps shatter the default delusion of police just being there for violent troublemakers or your own protection, by placing these people in a perfectly legal position the police are hostile to. it demonstrates a contradiction in the worldview they've been presented, by showing them first-hand just how flimsy the freedom to protest really is.
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UK comrades have shut down a weapons factory in Tamworth after a series of persistent actions. Quoting https://www.palestineaction.org/tamworth-shutdown/

>After the sale was completed last month, Elite KL’s new owners, listed as Griffin Newco Ltd, confirmed in an email to Palestine Action that they will have nothing to do with the previous owners, Elbit, and have discontinued any arms manufacturing:

>This victory is a direct result of sustained direct action which has sought, throughout Palestine Action’s existence, to make it impossible for Elbit to afford to operate in Britain. Before they sold the enterprise to a private equity syndicate, Elbit had reported that Elite KL operating profits had been slashed by over three-quarters, with Palestine Action responsible: Elbit directly cited the increased expenditure on security they’d been forced to make, and higher supply chain costs they faced.

>And these actions did, indeed, cost them. The first action at the site, in November 2020, saw Elite KL’s premises smashed into, the building covered in blood-red paint. Between March and July 2021, the site was put out of action three times by roof-top occupations – drenched red in March 2021, with the factory’s camera systems dismantled, before again being occupied in in May. Another roof-top occupation in July, despite increased security, saw the site forced closed – once again painted blood-red, and with its windows and fixings smashed through.

>In February 2022, activists decommissioned the site for weeks – closed off after an occupation that saw over £250,000 of damages caused, the roof tiles removed one-by-one. After this, Elbit erected a security perimeter around the site – but to no avail. One month later, six were arrested after Palestine Action returned to Tamworth – again taking the roof and smashing through, preventing the production of parts for Israel’s military machine.

This is tactically smart, as the roof is often a security weak point of a building, and damaging a roof can lead to serious damages once rain comes.

I've also heard threats of activist protests and even worker strikes have successfully led to boycotts of pro-Israel events in London. UK really seem to be leading the charge within the Western world.
Replies: >>342
>>335
Palestine action is maybe one of the best examples of a direct action group that has actually been successful in recent times.

 What crazy is they are basically the most extreme (non actual terrorist) group in the UK just now, just smashing fuck out of the factories. 

 Not only have they succesfully kicked elbit out of one or 2 places, but public opinion is much more behind them, to the extent a bunch of them got away with smashing up a factory on the basis that it was considered by a judge a genuine political act. 

 They are arguably, for your average normie, way worse than extinction rebellion or whatever, but people don't whine about them nearly as much. Maybe its because they tend to just go for the actual companies, rather than random public stuff. Also probably because more people are supportive of Palestine.

 This part about getting off scott free though, I do have to say is a little weird, considering how hard the UK has been clamping down on protestors in recent years. I find the decision a little sus. 

Also the very widely publicised nature of it is like, its for sure gotta be inflitrated. Mossad have such a hugely extensive intelligence apparatus and a huge reach in the UK, not even mentioning the UKs own intelligence services, combined with the money and power of Elbit itself. 

They hold a very interesting position in that regard in my mind.
Replies: >>344 >>346
>>342
>They are arguably, for your average normie, way worse than extinction rebellion or whatever, but people don't whine about them nearly as much. Maybe its because they tend to just go for the actual companies, rather than random public stuff.
Definitely a factor. I've blocked a main public road and a factory road. One makes people angry, even people who agree with the cause disagree with the method like the White Moderates which MLK Jr. so hated, but it's hard to get mad at people disrupting a weapons factory without sounding sociopathic or sadistic. You're not potentially blocking emergencies, you're not ruining commuters days, and if the workers have a decent contract then you're not even impacting their pay by blocking them.
I'm not sure what you mean by saying they're 'way worse' for normie mcnormal. The action is more direct and even more physically destructive than painting slashing. But it's way better for normies because they aren't negatively impacted at all!
Replies: >>345
>>344
> and if the workers have a decent contract 
and in this context they usually do. Basically the only workers in the UK to get a decent deal have something to do with arms because the state have worked out they need to keep people happy to keep things flowing, plus its so lucrative the money is there. 

>I'm not sure what you mean by saying they're 'way worse' for normie mcnormal. The action is more direct and even more physically destructive than painting slashing. 
its the physical destruction part I meant really, like extinction rebellion block up the road, but PA just take sledgehammers to stuff. As you say though, the difference is, very few people care about the wellbeing of weapons factories, apparently.
Replies: >>347
>>342
>This part about getting off scott free though, I do have to say is a little weird, considering how hard the UK has been clamping down on protestors in recent years. I find the decision a little sus.
Unexpected, sure, but I've heard from older protesters simes where they themselves pleaded guilty and got essentially a non-sentence. One kicked the sliding door off a police van after they got chucked in and basically argued it was an instinctive reaction and not malicious, so cops looked silly for trying to throw the book at them over minor damage. It's important to remember that a lot of the corruptions and biases of politics aresystematic rather than individual, there will be some judges who treat protesters sympathetically, even if the laws and corrupting pressures work against that.
Replies: >>348 >>364
>>345
>physical destruction
Right, and true. The Palestine Action is outright more violent. I know its tenuous to call sitting on a roof whacking holes in it 'violent', but it is directly attacking a place, instead of merely gluing yourself to infrastructure passively.
Of course, the context is different to Mediterranean anarchists kneecaping CEOs, because a person is attacked. Liberals and judges probably won't see that terror as acceptable, but rendering a weapons factory inoperable is a victimless crime to most people, and the victim isn't sympathetic. No-one's going to cry if you drive a bulldozer into a child molester.
>>346
This has actually happened to me as part of an antifa thing. I won't go into specifics but the judge was more or less like was like "lol don't care about nazis" although it wasn't no sentence at all. 

The thing about the PA lot is they got off completely.
Replies: >>350 >>351
>>348
Oh, I didn't know it was completely, that's pretty wild. Usually there's a wrist slap, like a fine. People I know are even getting non-association orders (regional head of state and police are cracking down hard on any direct actions).
Replies: >>354
>>348
>I won't go into specifics but the judge was more or less like was like "lol don't care about nazis" 
I know it's a low bar, but good on them. Antifascism (like, combatting open neo-Nazism and their violence) is made much easier when society can agree they're truly acceptable targets. None of that 'is punching a nazi okay?' crap.
and of course, good on you mate!
>>350
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2023/08/31/palestine-action-activists-acquitted-elbit-uav-engines/

>A judge has acquitted two Palestine Action activists after they blockade the entrance to a drone engine-making factory that supplies Elbit Systems, Israel’s largest privately owned arms company. Crucially, the judge let them off using a precedent of proportionately versus what they were protesting – that is, the pair’s actions were reasonable compared to what the drones would have done in the Occupied Territories.
Replies: >>360
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>>354
It's not often a judge deserves the title Honourable, but this may be an exception.
>>346
>One kicked the sliding door off a police van after they got chucked in and basically argued it was an instinctive reaction and not malicious, so cops looked silly for trying to throw the book at them over minor damage.
I've heard a surprising amount of cases where hurting a cop during an arrest goes unpunished. Really just depends on the judge, it seems.
Also, in case anyone hasn't already seen it, the classic law 101 lecture from a criminal defense attorney and a cop being candid about their shittery: Don't talk to the police
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
It's from the US and mentions specific US laws, but most of the points apply universally. That said, if you're at a protest, talk to a legal observer because you may or may not be legally compelled to give basic information like a name and address at an unauthorized protest.
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>getting ready to hand out leaflet this morning at the train station
>see some low-tier nazi graffiti over posters on an electrical box
>'no communism no marxism yes national socialism' 'fuck jews' 'fascists are so cool'
>get out my trusty marker and start overwriting them all
>look to the side
>train station employee is just standing there watching
fug
>"its nazi graffiti. i can't just leave it ther-"
>train worker just says "i'm not saying anything"
>keep going
It feels nice when the community has your back. Laws ain't shit when the people know you're right.
Replies: >>373 >>375
>>371
that's an important point.

actions we take will inevitably be, or become, illegal. the revolution will not be legalized.
so having allies (whether it be average citizens or sympathetic private security, or in rare but real cases, police and military) makes unlawful actions much less risky and much more feasible as a sustainable tactic. a resistance movement can die if a radical vanguard just all get arrested. but if no-one feels like snitching, if guards and judges turn blind eyes, and if communities cry out in protest, arrests can become far less of a threat until the mask of democracy and legitimacy is tossed aside.
Replies: >>374
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>>373
>or in rare but real cases, police and military
The military are especially powerful, I'd be interested to learn more about cases where the military has been brought in to attack their own citizens at scale.
As for police, vidrel is an example, albeit an anti-fascism example rather than a pro-left example. It could be chalked up to being an enemy of an enemy. But it does raise the point of police and military being more complex than some evil entity. Sympathetic people exist within the state and its agencies, even if they're systematically pressured to betray their good will. This shouldn't be relied on, but neither should it be dismissed.
>>371
I managed to get free kebabs at Muslim markets. It's validating to know that it's not just people being polite, they appreciate the solidarity.
Replies: >>376
>>375
Cities made me forget what a community feels like. Alienation isn't a meme.
Replies: >>377 >>378
>>376
if you're born into one, it's easy to take them for granted. and sometimes it's as simple as all being from a part of town, going to a school, being in the same job and drinking at the same pubs.
the flipside is, there's enough density to make it easier to find cultural communities - art scenes, nicher hobby clubs, and yeah, ideological organizations
Replies: >>378
>>377
>>376
I really think that because this, it is important to foster proper organised online communities
Replies: >>380
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>>378
I agree, while understanding online communities are also limited.
Internet friends can't provide the same level of aid that IRL communities like coworkers (in IRL jobs), family and friends can. You can't co-habitate, you can't set up a community garden and cook up cheap healthy food to share or contribute, you can't meet a lot of useful people who don't have online pretense, you can't show up in numbers at a protest and engage a local community in the same way and most of us can't strike online, lots of those physical limits.
However, the internet makes everyone everyone's neighbour when it comes to information, digital sharing and money sharing. The internet serves a vital role in connecting people who can't organize locally due to lack of people nearby or being murdered over politics, who can't interact as effectively in realspace, who want to collaborate with talented people who aren't in their area, all kinds of new connections which are impossible locally. Some people just can't go 'touch grass' with their politics. If I get an injury or illness and become bedridden, what can I do for the revolution without the digital sphere?

A properly-organized online community can be excellent for education and discussion, and even some forms of agitation. I think it's important, vital even, looking back at how the printing press and telegraph revolutionized the proletariat consciousness and co-ordination between workplaces and even countries. We already see shared propaganda production, I've seen paste-ups of anarchist posters locally which I know were designed by an artist overseas, we can download any book we want, we can donate to those who need monetary help like legal aid, we've even seen how an organized group can even push online communities into ideological shifts or at least expose people to interesting ideas. That said, I obviously understand it can't replace realspace orgs, it should complement them.
Having a great May Day. A couple of the trade worker unions have a great tradition going back decades and flooded the march with thousands of members. One of them at the pub[s] after the march told me that their union officials go to all the sites months in advance and tell them everyone is walking off on May Day. What are the managers gonna do? Fire them and the job gets delayed tenfold? Try to sue the workers for money they don't have? They'd get laughed out of the labour regulators.
Replies: >>405 >>410
>>404
>and flooded the march with thousands of members
meanwhile my industry is so pitiful there were just ten people marching under our flag, and almost all of them were the union staff rather than industry workers, so they're technically members of a different service union instead of mine ;_;
Replies: >>410
>>404
>>405
There were some workers in my union chat lamenting that we decided to march on a workday. I understand, but I also look to the other unions who successfully turned it into a non-legal holiday. That's a realistic goal for many industries.
Yet reformists out here are really trying to send the government a petition to make it a holiday. Ha!
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>union rep: I wish we knew more about how the compan-
>me
Replies: >>412
>>411
Good stuff. Especially in big companies where they have a maze of executives with no clue what is happening, being fed premade replies from HR. If you can cut through the hurdles and go straight to the important people, that's a win.
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>>313
>be me
>may day march
>chatting with five staff members from my union
>SEP (WSWS) walks up and starts asking us all if we're dissatisfied with our union staff and want to leave and form a one true union instead
mfw
I think most comrades would get more out of studying social theory, like effective rhetoric techniques or learning how ideas spread through a social network effectively, rather than studying abstract parts of socialist theory. It doesn't matter how correct you are if you're unable to convince many people of the best way forward, and if people are going to be discussing politics in day-to-day life then you might as well learn how to plant seeds properly.
Replies: >>439
>>438
I think comrades would get more out of a one-hour lecture about how to talk to people, and a ten minute briefing for special roles like holding up banners or using megaphones. Basic incompetence is just annoying.
Replies: >>443
>>439
>or using megaphones
I have to remember to bring earplugs to all these marches. It's a bit much when you're in a section with their own megaphones.
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Covered up some neo-Nazi marker graffiti.
>>446
Good job comrade. I've started bringing a marker around in case I come across anything.
Replies: >>452
>>449
Yeah, I keep one in my backpack, along with tape for any posters I have on me.
Scribbling out over grafifit on a poster can be a bit eyesore so I wish I had stickers, but it's not that important.
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I wonder if I'll be exempted from a draft if they know I'm a socialist.

Or maybe I'll just be thrown in prison, who knows.
Replies: >>502
>in meeting
>discussion time
>people are allowed three minutes each for the sake of finishing on time
>literally everyone goes far over time and gets cut off
Is it just my org or is this normal?
Replies: >>469
>>446
Nice
>>465
Somewhat normal but dysfunctional.
Do your meetings have agendas?
Replies: >>470
>>469
That org had a very loose agenda, was basically just a small panel of speakers (someone from the staff union and a student both talking about their year and the encampments, an academic talking about legal and cultural issues on the Zionist entity, and one of the org leaders talking about upcoming actions) then questions. So not really, or it was so poorly communicated that we didn't know there was one.
Another org (with some shared membership) has a more clear agenda and members handle question timing better but I also think that the first group has more people who aren't part of formal orgs. One is clearly an anarchist who grumbles about our formal speaking list format which prevents two people holding a back and forth discussion; and they're sometimes right about it.
>>446
Scribbled out more junk. This moron believes in some multiculturalism freemason jew conspiracy apparently. It's actually pretty funny after-the-fact.
Replies: >>483
An old post in the bunkerchan /edu/ archives reminded me; socialize discounts and benefits with your comrades.
My bank, my employer and my union all have different benefit programs where I can get around a 5-10% discount from various companies and so I can use some of those on behalf of comrades. If your org needs new stationary or hygiene supplies (tissues) and you can get them free through work, you're helping them save money for other stuff.
I don't know much about consumer co-ops, but getting together and buying certain things in bulk can save money.
Replies: >>476
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>>475
reminder to also just take shit like >>408.
One of the more radical unions has threatened a university with halting construction if they touch the encampments. That's the mark to beat over here, love to see this solidarity.
Replies: >>478 >>481
>>477
I've seen the university staff union stand in solidarity but not much from other unions unfortunately.
>>477
Awesome. A couple of the more radical unions here have made concrete actions over Palestine. I wish more did.
>>446
Note to self and others – buy thick-tipped marker. Makes it quicker and easier especially when covering up other junk.

>>473
rofl
As horrible as things are, I am grateful that our enemies are mostly pretty dumb.
Replies: >>497
>>483
>buy thick-tipped marker
Done, although it looks like the graffiti stopped, for now.
Replies: >>549
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>>456
Crossdressing to avoid the draft will probably still fly in the modern era, but you might as well start coming up with your lines now.
>>4
The Palestinian conflict has brought a few more people into the labour movement including the unions. I'm glad that union members and even the more radical unions as a collective have taken direct actions to stand in solidarity with protestors. The government here is scared and has started attacking the more militant unions, which is a shame.
I guess the silver lining is that said government may be alienating a huge chunk of their supporters in these attacks.
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>>497
>someone else has started scribbling out the schizofash marker scribbles
Outvoted, nerd.
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>>446
Anyone got thoughts on stickers?
I've seen sites selling picrel. One one hand, it shows that community members have rejected the message and taunts the person who put the junk up, but on the other hand, it may embolden others racists to know there are like-minded people making public statements and doing 'activism'.
Replies: >>575 >>577
>>572 *
Perhaps it's important to let a community know that an activist racist does exist in the community (so not to get complacent) and to demonstrate there are people in the community combating them, who will have the backs of others. There's no point in pretending the conflict doesn't exist.

Unfortunately the sticker alone lacks a call to action.
>>572
Scribbling over seems to be a better option than those stickers because it implies anybody could be doing it.

Depends on the neighboorhood though you know your local conditions better than us.
Replies: >>578
>>577
>Scribbling over seems to be a better option than those stickers because it implies anybody could be doing it.
Do you mean like a PotD thing, where it shows how accessible antif-ascist actions are and that anyone can do it? Or that it suggests the community itself is reacting rather than one antifa with stickers?
>Depends on the neighboorhood
Yeah that's true, I assumed a pretty neutral urban place where overt racism isn't seen as normal.
Replies: >>579
>>578
>Or that it suggests the community itself is reacting rather than one antifa with stickers?
I was thinking this, but the other notion also seems relevant.
Replies: >>580
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>>579
It's a good point I hadn't thought about. And make no mistake, knowing their own community is against them is demoralising to any nazi who isn't completely anti-social.
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Speaking of drinking games, you can always tell when someone new gets recruited to my org from the student politics circles because they randomly shout "SHAME!" during talks whenever the speaker mentions something bad someone did.
Is this a universal thing, or is my local campus org a cult?
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